Hall of Fame?

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Permalink Reply by Steve Sklar on February 3, 2010 at 6:31am

Yes, that might be cool, and sure would be easier. But I'm going to stick with my original idea, and gently keep discussing it with Tuva. For that matter, I'd really appreciate it if nobody started buying up the likely URLs, because if such a hall develops I'd like to see it/them own a related site.

At least to me, while I'm diplomatically recommending a certain inclusiveness, globally speaking, I don't envision including for membership those without really significant contributions in some regard. Not anyone and anything related to, or promoting TS or OS.

To respond to Jan's comment, if there is sufficient reason for someone's inclusion, then their identity is probably known. While Xosa singing and the Dani (as well as other lesser-known examples from around the world) might be interesting but lacking in dominant personalities, they can still be culturally represented. Such persons, groups, etc. could be included in an educational/informative dept. or presentation of some sort. But for artists, scholars, etc., I'd like some fairly high standards. And I think many of us are far too easily impressed!

Also, my idea was a Hall of Fame, with an accent on members worthy of such recognition.
Not a Hall of ok, pretty good, or adequate, etc.

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Permalink Reply by Jens Mügge on February 3, 2010 at 10:49am

A cyber hall of fame is a good idea too. But I think if people can travel to a place in Tuva, Mongolia or ... where ever it could or would be an extraordinary experience. But a Hall of Fame website could be a first step to realize this idea with a Hall of Fame ...

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Permalink Reply by Dean Frenkel on February 4, 2010 at 12:43am

There is the crucial question of how the Hall of Fame would be titled. I imagine, and it's only my opinion, that a throat singing Hall of Fame needs to be country specific and distinguishable from an overtone singing one, which should probably be worldwide and could easily be cyber. It'd be a travesty if an 'international throat singing H of F' overly celebrated throat singers from just one country, or failed to honour those who really should be represented. Hence I think, say, a 'Tuvan throat singing Hall of Fame' would most appropriately honour the finest Tuvan throat singers, and that it might be incongruous for Stockhausen or numerous others to be there. Yet as Jens suggested Stockhausen would arguably be the first to feature in an overtone singing Hall of Fame, given his pioneering contribution. I agree with Steve that those who deserve to be honoured should indeed be singers of the highest quality, yet there would need to be exceptions. Eg: Arthur C Miles is monumental as the first western example yet he probably wasn't the greatest of throat singers. Has anyone heard recordings of him? The idea of a H of F is an excellent one - I think the concept and criterion needs to be thought through and developed.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Sklar on February 4, 2010 at 1:09am

Arthur Miles: maybe not the greatest, no. Actually, not an throat-singer at all. But pretty darned nice, IMO, plus more ambitious and interesting than a lot of what I hear today. And I know he sounded better than the marginal quality recording. Of course, YMMV. Recorded in the late 20s; the earliest Tuvan or Mongolian recordings that I'm aware of date to around 1934, Tibetan chant around 1960. So, maybe I'd include him as a performer, but I'd certainly make sure he was represented in some fashion.

http://www.khoomei.com/mp3s/amiles1.mp3
http://www.khoomei.com/mp3s/amiles2.mp3

It's been a while since reading up on some of these folks, like Stockhausen. A pioneer in the "classical" world, but decades after Mr. Miles. I remember Stimmung, which although always mentioned for its cultural significance, but didn't do much for me, as a listener. Did he do another vocal overtone piece later? Can't recall, no time to look it up.

I'd consider David Hykes, Michael Vetter and Tran Quang Hai as the more influential OS pioneers, with Hykes and Hai going back to what, about 1970?

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Permalink Reply by Dean Frenkel on February 4, 2010 at 1:35am

Steve, I appreciate your effort of loading these precious recordings of Arthur Miles. Thank you ! I'm actually impressed with his overtone singing, given that he's good enough to control the harmonic melodies and despite what must have been challenging recording conditions - there almost certainly was no precedent. It is exciting to listen to. I agree about the pioneers David Hykes, Michael Vetter, Tran Quang Hai and of course there are more. In Australia Andrew Skeoch was one magnificent overtone singer whose pioneering efforts led to many hundreds learning, including some really good ones. Re Stockhausen, I think that he explored the overtone voice beyond just a pretty listening experience. His influence appears to have sporned the current healthy collection of overtone singing in Germany.

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R.I.P.Permalink Reply by Jan Heinke on February 4, 2010 at 4:54am

hey guys, it seems like we're facing different, sometimes opposite criteria to decide, what's important in overtone singing. on one hand we have the quality of particular vocal techniques and the range of expression. (sometimes it even looks like sports: the longest tone, the highest overtone in numbers or frequency aso.) on the other we need to consider the richness of musical ideas in a performance, the structural complexity of a composition or the diversity of possible sounds and moods (here also with some outgrowth). then the social imprint of a lifework. not at least, all this depends on the given cultural and historical context. listening to a western pioneer under technical or compositional aspects is a different but yet important experience for me,
and difficult to compare with a welldone traditional tuvinian song which i enjoy likewise.

regarding miles and stockhausen: they didn't knew each other (and even the eastern sources)
but both of them had a genuin approach to explore and develope os with importance for their surroundings. means, the order of appearance in time as a criterium is not really important. in my opinion all of them are worthy to be recognised. not to forget (as mentioned before) the papua and xhosa people or stuart hinds, toby twining and arve henriksen. if we consider a hall of "fame" as a tool to make os more appreciable, it should appreciate it's own widest possible range of different cultures, backgrounds and styles/techniques (of course represented with "some fairly high standards").

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Permalink Reply by Marco Tonini on February 4, 2010 at 11:47am

Hi,
sorry, but maybe I don't understand. Is Steve's goal to create a roll of "Overtone World Singers" about the best contributors? I read all yours posts on this discussion, but I'm not able to comprehend.

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Permalink Reply by Dean Frenkel on February 5, 2010 at 7:00am

Sorry I don't intend to muddy what is a good idea. It's about getting the concept right. I do think that the Throat Singing Hall of Fame is very different from an Overtone Singing Hall of Fame and that maybe the former would be applicable in Tuva and the latter in cyberspace. Re the former, I imagine titling Tuvan Throat Singing Hall of Fame is probably the most apt given that, for example great throat singers of Sardinia (and other countries) would not be represented - otherwise it might have to be a very large hall. Objectivity of selection and the issue of 'ownership' of is important also.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Sklar on February 8, 2010 at 7:25am

Hi Marco,

I would like to see a "3-d" facility that serves as an educational and multicultural hub or center for all types of throat-and-overtone singing. Part of such a place would be an area honoring the most significant, important, and influential artists, and other relevant and related people such as researchers, musicians, authors and perhaps other popularisers, etc. Here we often call such an entity an "Hall of Fame." Ideally, an international panel would be charged with nominations and inclusions.

I imagine this place to be in Kyzyl, possibly associated with the Tuvan National Museum. Of course, some form of web presence would be good, and expected, but again for me the main idea is as described above.

I understand that English is not Marco's or many others' native tongue, and I've tried to be clear and succinct. But, perhaps someone could provide translations of this topic for those who need it?

Dean, again I see this as a "big tent" approach. ALL types of TS and OS included. I may be wrong, but while there are many cultures involved, which should be included, they don't all necessarily have individuals who might rate being honored as Hall of Fame inductees.

Even among Tuvans and Mongolians, the best known of the TS regions, the first nominees would likely be represented at first by, say (arbitrarily, and only to make my point).

An initial listing might include:

Tuva: Soruktu Kyrgys, Kombu Ondar, Xunashtaar-ool Oorzhak, Gennadi Tumat, Kaigal-ool Khovalyg, etc. Groups such as Tuva Ensemble, HHT, Chirgilchin...

Mongolia: Sundui, Sengedorj, Tserendaava, Odsuren, Hosoo, etc...

OS: Arthur Miles, David Hykes, Michael Vetter, etc...

Academics: Ted Levin, Zoya Kyrgys, Valentina Suzukei, Tran Quang Hai...

So, those are just a few examples that spring to mind, and others as well.

Thanks,

Steve

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Permalink Reply by Marco Tonini on February 12, 2010 at 7:49pm

Thanks Steve,

can be a good idea to create a poll? Otherwise to create a list, each OMN member can suggest an own list about (as you wrote): academics, researchers, singers, performers, better if divided for sections, OS, TS, Western Style, ..., ...

Or divided for countries, regions, nationalities.
For example: "What are, in your opinion, the most rilevant pioneers about OS in your country?"

For other questions just replace some words, pioneers with performers, and OS with TS, or other

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Permalink Reply by Skye Løfvander on February 16, 2010 at 11:22am

Hello famefans!
These days where all overtone singers are pocket gurus enlightening the world that tone, colour, planets, chakras etc is all the same soup I think it is really necessary to draw the attention to the few researchers who have gone a little deeper in to the exploration of the nature of harmonics - also on a theoretical level:
Hans Jenny
Hans Kayser

And a long line of ancients:
Nichomachus
Iamplicus
Plato
Pythagoras
Archytas
Jing Fang
Boetius
,...

And renaissance:
Ficino
Gaffurio
Zarlino
Reisch
Fludd
Kepler
,...

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