Optimal Overtone Numbering System

Comment

Comment by Marco Tonini on December 25, 2009 at 10:52am

@ Wolfgang

Your description is right and clear, partials, overtones, harmonics, but in Italy we use only PARTIALS and HARMONICS terms.
Italian translation:
partial = componente armonica or componente inarmonica
harmonic= armonico or componente armonico

For us to say PARTIAL or HARMONIC it is the same, then we can explaine if PARTIAL is harmonic or inharmonic in relation with an audio spectrogram.

If we - in Italy - analyze a fork sound we can use both terms:

Comment by Filip Rydlo on April 15, 2009 at 4:19pm

Definitely

I would also call it 5th harmonic no matter what.

Comment by Wolfgang Saus on April 6, 2009 at 10:31pm

It's not that simple always. There might be different definitions of some of our terms depending on who you're adressing, a musician or a physicist. Most overtone singers agreed on the physical terms, as I found in this forum. But some musicians have a different approach. Compare the definitions of a tone, for instance (de/wikipedia). For musicians it can be a lot of things from sound till pitch. In physics it's a sine wave.

I would distinguish between overtone and partial, to prevent misunderstanding. Here are my definitions of terms (I hope without too much confusion with my english translation. The problems seem to be deeper discussed in German than in English):

Partials - are the pure tones (sine waves) a sound is composed of, including the fundamental. Partials can be harmonic or inharmonic. The fundamental is counted as partial no. 1.

Overtones - are the partials that are higher than the fundamental. Overtones can be harmonic or inharmonic. The second partial is counted as overtone no. 1.

Harmonics - are partials with integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. The fundamental is counted as harmonic no. 1, similar to partials. Every harmonic is a partial (but not necessarily vice versa).

Usually the numbering of partials and harmonics are similar, since in most of the cases there are either harmonic or inharmonic in most of the cases. I am not sure about sounds composed of both inharmonic and harmonic partials, as happens with some gong sounds. You'll probably agree on calling the harmonic partials 'harmonics'. But what about the numbering? It could happen that there are some inharmonic partials first and then comes a major third two octave above the fundamental. I would tend to speak of it as the 5th harmonic even if it's the 3rd partial. What do you think?

Wolfgang
www.oberton.org

Comment by Filip Rydlo on March 3, 2009 at 12:24pm

Anna-Maria and Steve,
I thank you both for your nice comments.

I need to say only this: I will never substitute numbers of overtones!
I need them to sing from the paper. I am only trying to add some kind of notation for them, so that professional choir-masters / conductors can cunduct an overtone-choir music and literally see the harmony without the need to learn the numbering system for overtones. So, they are able to identify and correct mistakes.

So, there are supposed to be both : the notation (for musicians and conductors to see harmony at first sight) AND numbers for us = overtone singers. That's it. :)

I hope my intension is crystal clear now :o)

Comment by Steve Sklar on March 2, 2009 at 11:45pm

Anna-Maira,

That seems handy for notation, except that the fundamental is not overtone 1. It's not an overtone, but it is harmonic 1 (though I'm not certain you meant it that way; perhaps it's a language thing?). I think that is the most common source of confusion.

We have definitions, and as long as we understand them the whole issue of numbering should be very simple.

Best,

Comment by Anna-Maria Hefele on March 2, 2009 at 6:39pm

for me its the easiest to work with fundamentals in normal classical notation and to have the overtones only as numbers, where the fundamental is nr. one.
It's easier then having everything in classical notation and having no numbers.

Comment by Filip Rydlo on March 2, 2009 at 1:08am

Please, comment my example of possible new Optimal NOTATION style for overtones! :)

in the discussion "Let's discover Optimal notation syst. for musicians"

Comment by Filip Rydlo on March 1, 2009 at 11:50pm

Brother Jacob
http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/mp3/8/2/3/82317.mp3

Narodil se Kristus Pán (sample)
http://www.alikvartet.ic.cz/sbor/narodil_se_kristuspan.mp3

Comment by Filip Rydlo on March 1, 2009 at 9:20pm

How expectations can alter what we hear can be easily demonstrated on two very famous melodies - that probably every one knows. :

1st one is: "Brother Jacob"
2nd is: "Narodil se Kristus Pán" (Czech wintersong which originates from latin sacred song "Ave hierarchie coelestis" )

In first one: We hear 11-th overtone LIKE if it was "F"
In second example : We hear 11-th overtone LIKE if it was "F-sharp"


The truth is: It is just in between them. 50 cents higher than "F" but 50 lower than "F-sharp". :)

I will record those examples and post links on them here...

Comment by Filip Rydlo on August 1, 2008 at 4:12pm

Yes! Expectations... exactly!
I like Thy comment very much, Jan.

Thank Thee.

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