Hi Mauro,
my help for you is to try with a personal overtone-singer, there are a lot in all our country. Don't try for a school. I hope that you can learm something in this forum too, here there are a lot of wonderful overtone-singers!

Great Idea! Thanks for inviting! Soon, we will share.... and learn!
Blessings
Sakshi

Grazie dell'invito! A presto!
valentina

Hi,
I would like to know more about kargyraa techniques and the way of breathing while singing kargyraa. I tried very often and it didn't work...
can anybody explain?
Anna-Maria

ciao Marco, eccomi qua...Grazie per l'invito.Spero di riuscire a gestire tutti i "siti e sottositi" che stanno proliferando. A presto

ciao marco,
sat nam dear sakshi,
thank you soooooooooo much for the invitation.
i am glad to be here, though not having that much time now to be as activ as i wish to be ;-)
hope to have soon a bit more time for learning and sharing more here :-))

love and blessings
and lots of good vibes
for all you are going to do

soheyla*

Hi Marco,

Thank you very much for inviting me!
I will be very happy to share tips and techniques on overtone singing and also to learn.

for Anna-Maria on kargyraa
preamble: I'm very far from sing kargyraa...so my advices arevery simple.. and not so precise... but ,the first thing that tran quang hai teach is to move the lower part of the abdomen, in particolar to push out.. I don't know the fisic relation between throat, breathing and those muscles, but in my experince i've observed that in this way i don't irritate my throat (my larynx?) and I can sing quite a long...
Certainly there are somebody more expert than me on this forum!!! the topic is very interesting!

This is the oldest form of singing in the world, practised by indigenous peoples in disparate pockets of the world and mainly from non-writing societies. It is also endangered in its traditional grounds. This forum is helping to keep alive something very important.

Anna-Maria, kargyraa is really no mystery; the gist is that one engages the ventricular folds at half the speed of the vocal folds, along with voicing the vocal folds. A bit of constriction at the correct level in the larynx, just above the vocal folds, they enter the airstream, and voila! Kargyraa (at least beginner kargyraa). At least as far as getting the basic sound, that's the "trick." There is no special breathing technique peculiar to kargyraa, but good karg uses very little breath.

Dean, good to "see" you ;-) With respect but curiosity, I've seen you write that before (elsewhere) and I don't understand the basis for such comments. I've yet to find any evidence that OS is the oldest form of singing, neither have any researchers of which I'm aware. Nor do I expect to... Also, throat-singing is absolutely thriving in numerous locations, traditional and not. What/where is the endangerment?

Best to all,

Steve

Steve, No problems with disagreement or healthy debate.
In answer to your two questions,
OLDEST FORM OF SINGING
The fact that so many Aboriginal cultures all over the world practise different forms of throat singing and that cultures on both sides of the Bering Strait (which was submerged by ocean about 14,000 years ago) have been continuing to throat sing are strong evidence of this. Genetic evidence (see the Genographic Project) that these cultures are linked to Mongolia makes it even considerably older.

Indeed I am unaware of evidence of any other form of singing that is older.

Do you really think that overtone singing is as new as rap?

ENDANGERMENT? I am aware that throat singing is thriving in Tuva, but in most of its traditional grounds it is clearly in trouble. As you’d be aware it is practised broadly by Aboriginal cultures all over the world and universally they're in crisis. The Ainu lost their last throat singer in 1976, Inuits were banned from throat singing for most of the 20th century, throat singing tribes in Papua New Guinea, Siberia, Africa, Asia are being swallowed up by Christianisation and it’s so endangered in Tibet that the Dalai Lama has sounded alarm bells about the genocide of Tibetan culture and monumentally opened its cultural practises to the west. Sure there’s a new wave of interest in the west, but is it enough to sustain it beyond the 21st Century?

Hello everyone,

I'm interested to join this group, even though "overtone" and "techniques" are words I have "some issues" with. I don't mean that polemically at all, just a personal observation... By "issues," I really mean that they are terms I've thought a lot about over the (y)ears... What I've written below kind of got very long-winded --I'm not a big user of forums-- so, though I'll post this as written, I think I'll start a new forum here, called Harmonic Awareness... meantime... on one long breath :-)...

The whole sound (since the very beginning) is "overtones," or rather, harmonic, since the fundamental note is just as harmonic, just as "overtonally pure" as anything higher up (or lower down). Vive l'1!

To get beyond this quite basic misunderstanding, the word "harmonic" seems much more accurate and all-inclusive than "overtone," at least to me. That's why when I began my work in 1975, I did try out various names for my musical explorations, like "overtone singing" and "overtone chanting," but it bothered me to be emphasizing just the higher part of the spectrum-- seemed like maybe just more earthling addiction to "high"--Everest, high-jumping, bungee cord, etc.! :-). (I've often imagined a spoof film called "Spinal Tone" where we overtone-addicted earthlings are teased about "turning our voices up to 11"! (And beyond, of course!). And I think our field reached rock-bottom, paradoxically!, when after some overtone concert or other I heard somebody say, "wow, the overtones were so LOUD." Dude, just get a guitar.

As if we somehow had gotten so intoxicated on our own hot air that we really believe "higher is better" or that "louder is better." When René Guénon wrote prophetically about the current global penuries, "The Reign of Quantity," I believe he and others are referring to the constant danger of preferring Quantity to Quality. One voice speaking or singing the truth is worth a thousand of us making overtones-- no? The Emperor has no Chords! :-). By the way, I do believe more can be better, otherwise I wouldn't have started the Harmonic Choir in 1975 by saying to my filmmaking friends, "listen to this"! Nor would I have conducted a Harmonic Meeting with the 800,000 peace demonstrators in Central Park in New York in 1982... but ultimately it's qualities of harmonic being more than quantities of harmonic sound that will help the overall attunement...

Basically, what seems important are techniques that address the whole, not just a part. The whole spectrum, and the whole person-- harmonics not just of sound, but of listening, breath, sensation, and the world beyond...

"Techniques" is also a tricky area; techniques for what? Used by who? Who am I when I practice? Is being a technique? Is the harmonic nature of sound a technique? Is harmonic listening a technique? How come nobody looks for the UNALTERED state?!

We seem to often "use" techniques without the necessary "listening for the listener", without a sense of Self-inquiry, often with the same dualistic "I want" subject/object program so often running in the rest of our lives... When overtones are limited to being objects in my awareness field, inside or out, I'm in a state of separation... unless I am also doing harmonic work with awareness-- the silent side of all outer, technical topics.

They certainly serve their purpose, but the point would seem to be how they might reduce the sense of separation, how they clarify our (rather deaf) awareness, help a sense of connection, merging with nature, the universe, others... these are awareness topics, meaning topics, toward which any technique, modern or ancient, naturally leads when we work in the spirit of seeking attunement... techniques for recongizing different qualities of awareness...

I think it's important to remember, perhaps especially when "zeroing in" on technical concerns, that "harmonic presence" is found throughout the universe, from the Big Bang to harmonics of stars (stellar seismology). I see "listen up" and "look up" as good advice to help us beyond our earthling-centric debates.

As we say in the Harmonic Chant/Harmonic Presence work-- harmonics are universal, just like gravity, light and heat. Gravity is not Bulgarian (for example); light is not Canadian, heat is not Ukrainian; likewise, harmonics are everywhere to be heard; all music and singing is fundamentally harmonic.

Once that basic question is settled, one is more free to study teachings and practices about the harmonic presence in listening, awareness, breath, silence, and other aspects of reality. Yes, harmonics of listening-- different qualities, levels, aspects, dimensions, layers, textures... First, the music of the spheres; then the even bigger questions about the music of the spheres of listening...

I've just come back from some immersive time with my godbrother and godmother from a Pueblo tribe in New Mexico, where I was born. Their music is utterly haunting...and they love Harmonic Chant, as do several of my Tibetan teachers-- before and beyond temporal notions of "new", "old", it seems that, whatever the "duration" of our cultures, that we can meet and feel connection and harmony in a realm somehow outside of time.

So, on the most human level, I guess it's in the realm of "techniques for going beyond time" where things seem to get the most interesting.

The "honest harmonic seeker" approach we try and take in that area is actually quite simple-- basically, listening in to all cycles of which we are "composed" --cycles meaning frequencies, vibrations, phases, and especially, all these ups and downs of life on Earth. And of course at the same time listening in to the vast silence and space of the fundamental background-- the resonant emptiness. By completing the study of the harmonic nature of reality, we will eventually find again the "free listening" liberated from all such cyclic constraints. And of course, "samsara" means...cycles. We are in these cycles, these harmonics. It's us; it's the entire music of what we each call "my life."

To work in that direction, no secret about the curriculum, a large ensemble of "techniques" to develop integral harmonic knowledge linking music, mind, meditation and medicine...

At the heart of the matter-- this matter-- something really really essential to be heard, attuned to... what is it?

The "oldest singing"?

Maybe it's truly silent listening, free of all identification. Then "the message" comes through, just as it is, to each of us, just as we are. I do believe it's the purest listening that IS the best music...

OK, I don't mean to seem to be taking the easy way out about the topic of this forum! My apologies if that is the case. In Harmonic Chant, the lineage we have developed since 1971, we are also very concerned with technique, up to a point.

That's why the principal teaching structure in Harmonic Chant studies is "The Twelve Levels." It's a very precise taxonomy of technical possibilities, which keep in mind the overall unity of the vibrational spectrum and the (silent listening) mind from which it arises.

By the way, everybody is invited to our ongoing programs, whether at our main center in France, our online Chant Room programs, or at one of the many Harmonic Presence retreats/seminars in different countries.

Sorry, one very commercial and happy announcement-- we've just released an audiophile edition of Hearing Solar Winds, called HEARING SOLAR WINDS ALIGHT, to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the recording. It's available HERE.

This is the first "wave" in a year-long series of exploration/sharing/events/gatherings we're organizing with the HPF, called "Harmonic Year 2009".

With peace and all best wishes,

David Hykes
Harmonic Presence Foundation
www.harmonicpresence.org
©David Hykes 2008
all rights reserved.

Dean, clearly we share a difference of opinion ;-)

I just don’t think I’d use the phrase “so many cultures.” Several, perhaps. And that’s using the “big umbrella” as the similarities between what we call types of throat-singing include a number of rather disparate vocalizations.

Yes, in Tuva throat-singing is thriving. It has spread in Mongolia, and while nearly lost in the Altai, Khakassia, etc. it is bouncing back.

While Tibetan culture in Tibet has undergone varying degrees of assault under Chinese domination, the monk’s tantric chanting seems to have endured and even spread, and has also spread around the world. To the best of my knowledge, the “alarm bells” rung by the Dalai Lama are more to do with political and religious repression, torture, environmental damage, Chinese immigration and such, rather than “throat-singing” as such.

Again, I’m not sure exactly what you consider throat-singing. But I am sure that the number of people worldwide that are now practicing or trying to learn some form of singing (overtone, etc.) inspired by the native singers and chanters likely exceeds the number of said natives, or perhaps the population of Tuva. Many more are appreciative listeners (and, well, unappreciative listeners, too).

While Christianisation has so often gone hand-in-hand with cultural destruction of native peoples, there are many exceptions. For example, there are people such as Djalu’ Guruwiwi, renowned custodion of the Yirdaki and Christian elder of the Yolngu people of NE Arnhemland, and Vladimir Oidupaa, a well-known Christian Tuvan throat-singer.

I get the impression that among Arctic peoples, their very different but similarly-described art has also been increasing, including among men. Is that incorrect?

As for ancient-ness, from a standard timeline perspective I suppose that simpler forms of singing, humming, and whistling preceded more complex vocalizations such as generally meant by “throat-singing.” Of course, those vocal forms are global and pre-ice age. Are you including other things as throat-singing?

Similarly, I’d expect that simple reeds, stems, seeds, etc. and hands preceded the didgeridoo as the earliest wind instruments, as is often claimed. And hollow logs before skin frame drums, and so on.

I would not be surprised however if throat-singing was practiced by some individuals (think Paleolithic Arthur Miles) or cultures of which we have no record. Then again, we are a species that took millions of years to invent the Frisbee…

“Do you really think that overtone singing is as new as rap?”
Not sure what you mean. Have I ever said such a thing?

Anyone have a recording of Ainu throat-singers? I may have heard such a recording but am not sure.

Cheers,

Steve

A hug to all the members of this brilliant group. Greetings from SIcily.
R

Hi David et al,

It’s nice to see you participating here and to read your thoughtful and considered response. As this is a topic toward which I’ve also enjoyed a great deal of pondering and investigation, I’d like to offer the following responses. And I do hope you’ll share more thoughts regarding Harmonic Awareness and more. It’s unfortunate, I think, that so often these online forums feature the opinions and advice of beginners and not the truly accomplished veterans.

Of course, at least when speaking of the voice as we do here, it is as you say all harmonics. And while I share, at least at times, your having some issues with the word “technique,” I also recognize that such issues are a choice, not necessarily inherent to the meaning of the word.

Similarly, while I agree that there are techniques of listening, of attention, of intention, etc., and without good listening it is impossible to create good music, or healing, but to dwell on them when discussing vocal technique seems to me to muddy the waters a bit.

Technique, as we generally use it here, is really fairly simple to define: It refers to the action(s) we take to achieve a goal or intention. I think this applies whether we are “vocalizing harmonics” for any purpose: musically, meditatively, in a healing context, or whatever. And I suspect that the audience member that enjoyed the loud harmonics simply enjoyed what he percieved as a developed technique. And surely, the same goes for guitar playing (in which I have also indulged for many years). That’s not to say I didn’t enjoy your Nigel Tufnel-inspired humor ;-)

Now, I don’t feel that louder is necessarily better. But, if it is what is called for artistically or otherwise it is appropriate. It is then the correct quality. The same applies to other issues of technique, such as softness, range, tonal quality, speed/agility, etc.

On my own path, my attitudes have changed and evolved over the years. Currently, I see value in a diverse range of techniques and approaches, with different contexts. Those I choose to use musically often differ greatly from those I may use in a healing context, for example. Because my interests and intentions are diverse, I have invested much time in techniques, as without it I would be unable to explore and express those interests. Without technique I would be like a would-be guitarist, unable to tune, to get a good sound, or to play melodies or chords well. What good is that?

To me (this may seem strange as I am not a visual artist), I see what we often refer to as (western) overtone singing as somewhat akin to water-color pastels; a softer, often gentle approach that fits well certain types of musical contexts. Throat-singing, to me, involves stronger, bolder, sometimes more aggressive (but not always) sounding techniques that if developed may go in more directions, with greater intensity. Or as flavors, overtone singing is more akin to say, vanilla or strawberry, and throat-singing to spices and hot peppers. I love a strong, hard sygyt, but wouldn’t want habeñeros in every dish!

So, when I hear a need for softer tones, I use them, and when I feel the need for a high, hard, xovu kargyraa or sygyt that cuts like a knife, I use them. Without working to develop diverse and sophisticated technique, they would be impossible. That’s why I like having an ezengileer technique that goes to 11!

Personally, I don’t really care for overtone singing or overtone-based music more or less than I do other types. My tastes are diverse, as I’ve indicated. But, I can say that quantitatively, I don’t really enjoy as much of the overtone-based stuff as I’d like to, and it sure isn’t because of an overemphasis on technique.

While I do hear a lot of instrumental music that features too much “wheedily-deedily,” to quote Frank Zappa, for my ears (although I’m a HUGE fan of some virtuosic music) a lot of overtone-singing music bores me. There, I’ve said it! Now, it’s tough to say that the reason is as simple as undeveloped technique, because without sufficient technique it’s impossible to know what creativity might have been expressed.

When I hear a great harmonic melodic talent ala Sundui, or his musical descendents such as our member Hosoo, or my friend Kaigal-ool singing a breathtaking khoomei that evokes the feeling one encounters watching shimmering northern lights, or recall first hearing David Hykes moving fundamental and overtones independently in service of musical ideas, those have inspired me. But all too often, I hear the same limited stepwise movement of so many harmonic singers, and it does not. If they are beginners, that’s fine as we have to begin at the beginning. But so many fail to develop far past that, and it’s disappointing. Is it because of lack of creativity, or inspiration? Or lack of technique, or both? It can be difficult to tell, but I guarantee that without cultivating some decent level of technique, it really doesn’t matter, because without it, any real creativity or ideas are unexpressable.

A similar trend that amazes me is that of overtone singers who for whatever reason seem to be under the impression that these little elements of sound are so intrinsically precious and wonderful that there is no reason to develop real skill. On several occasions, I have witnessed performances by musicians (and sound healers, who for some reason often regard themselves as quite separate from and above “musicians”, even in performance) that have spent many years mastering their instruments but are quite comfortable throwing in some awfully executed “overtone singing.” The seeming explanation, sometimes explained, is that these harmonics are so fabulous in their own right that it’s simply a blessing bestowed on any audience lucky enough to hear them. WTF is up with that?!?!

Technique is important. Developed, it’s the key to unlocking expression, undeveloped it’s an impediment.

Best to all,

Steve Sklar

PS: thanks for the hug, Raffaele! ;-)

G'day OMNers, How lucky we are to have such a network - thanks to Jens and to all contributors. I'd firstly like to endorse Steve Sklar's sentiments about those musicians who present overtones/throat singing as a 'token' on top of their musical specialties. One day I'd love to demonstrate the folly to an audience by playing some very average violin after singing. I'd also like to thank Steve for outlining his perspectives and for having the courage to be openly honest about his feelings. I also agree with him about the value of a range of diverse techniques and approaches and the analogy of coloured sound. On the other side I think his explanation of 'technique' needs some elaborating on. In answer to his Christianisation comment, I agree that there are exceptions and that indeed missionaries have done some good work but I hold firm to my contention that Christianisation of native peoples continues to decimate traditional practices on a ubiquitous scale. Re Tibet, the Dalai Lama today announced that China is turning Tibet into a hell on earth. It's clear that China's repression of Tibet includes assaults on traditional practices including throat singing. Are we distinguishable from other musicians and singers? I think so - as harmonic singers and throat singers we are all vocal instrumentalists.

Here is my attempt at articulating one perspective on technique.

It is a given that there are many harmonic vocal techniques in the broad area of throat singing. While some like sygyt, kargyraa, dumchuktaar, rekukkara, nipaquhiit, have been named by certain cultures, perhaps there are yet more techniques than there are names for. There are musical techniques, healing techniques and spiritual techniques. I think most have the following components in common.

POSITIONING
Positioning of the lips, tongue, the glottal muscles, the nasal muscles. Frequently they need to be very precisely positioned.

PROJECTION
I consider that with overtones there is a choice of in excess of 100 levels of projection, perhaps more than ten times the levels of normal singing. Accessing the most resonant levels, which I call the signature zone, is key to the skill.

COORDINATION
Coordinating all the elements, the positioning of the the lips, tongue, glottal muscles, nasal muscles, with projection of breath and sound. All helped by relaxing the muscles.

Technique is important if the singer is to achieve what can be called harmonic consciousness. It is perhaps a form of enlightenment, an altered consciousness, a slowing of perception of time and a broadening of the sense of space. It is a great connector to the environment, the cosmos and to the self. Only excellent singers can be sufficiently throat-muscle strong and relaxed enough to generate the energy of resonance.

I'm confident of the following: that one the most important factors behind harmonic consciousness is not the sounds but the impact of a special breathing exercise involved in making them.

It is little known that the breathing technique which drives the harmonic sounds is a powerful prana yama exercise of long steady gradual projection. It can achieve a state of no wasted energy, enhanced awareness and invigoration. A liberating feature of this is that you don't need religion to achieve its many levels.

Hello There! A beautiful and peaceful Easter to all of you! Ciao :-)

Hello ,i don' think a 10000 year old tradition is of more or less worth then a 1000,100 or even 10 year old tradition.According to a scientific work from Tuva there is yet no written account found of something like overtonesinging (or throatsinging) in Tuva and around that is older than 1000-1200 years.,whereas there ARE accounts of the jew's harp that are older. What counts is what it's worth for the people persuing it,what place and function it has in there respective culture.It's pure speculation to think overtone/throat singing should be the oldest form of singing there is,because i can't conceive that such sophisticated ways of singing should have been there BEFORE simpler ways of using the voice. As far as i know the research the Ainu "rekukkara" didn't involve the pointed and intended use of partials/harmonics,but more the use of rough ,throaty sounds like in the throatsinging of the Chukchis and more (far away) the Inuits of Canada.

False Vocal Fold Surface Waves During Sygyt Singing: a theoretical study by Chen-Gia Tsai

Would you like to learn Tuvan Throat-singing techniques?

All three of my online lessons are on sale for $20/each (regularly $30) through December 31, 2009.


http://khoomei.com/lessons.htm

Go get 'em!

Nice offer Steve!

Hello everybody, i try to learn khoomei by myself and i've recorded a small mp3 on my page. Can you tell me if i'm on the good way to sing khoomeï ? I want to learn sygyt but i've read that sygyt is based on khoomei so i work on it :-))

thank you !

Good luck my friend!!!!
all the best!!!!

Don't know why it took me so long to join this group. I've been teaching overtone singing for 20 years, and it's always good to hear the perspectives of others.

DJ London, no problem .... just relax ... best, Jens

Hi Everyone,
I have finally gotten around to joining the group. I hope all is well with everyone. Having a bit of a revival here in the UK now that I have finished my BMus in Classical Indian music...time for more overtones!! Rollin

Oh, also, just working on converting my Overtone Singing Study Guide into an ebook. It's been out of print for years, despite requests. You'll be able to find it on www.overtonesinging.com.

Hallo Everyone,
I hope I'm not too rude if I use this wall to announce an Overtones Event we're organizing in Catania, Sicily from 6 to 8 dececmber.
Special guest Tran Quang Hai!
All the infos here: https://www.facebook.com/events/182573345278908/
OR contact me here: mondodimusica@gmail.com

Excuse me for intrusion and Happy Harmonies to all!
Luca